dirty meat and shot placement

@T @treeman 2 years ago

I am tired of dirty meat, cutting away blood meat, then washing and more cutting to get the half digested grass out of wherever it's been blown into.
Cody and I are meat hunters, so full on shoulder shots are really not an option. We have tried double lung shots, through one shoulder in and out behind far side shoulder, behind one in and out on far side in shoulder. We have tried full frontal and we tried in behind last rib and out on far side shoulder, shot placement we have tried in excess - much.
Everytime its either blood meat or gut content in the wound channel or surrounds, and it sucks to work such an carcass. The clients are now told "in on the shoulder bone and out on or behind other side shoulder" - sorry about the meat loss.
I do a lot of headshots, but they are almost entirely on those get lucky at 80 m here pops a head out looking other direction cases - freehand shooting. Lovely clean carcass and no meat damage.

I have been talking to Cody about taking lower neck shots, in front of the shoulder from the side and above the line of the spine if from front or back. The frontal or facing away shots are pretty safe, if you hit the neck its dead, the side on shots I am still pondering.
Tonight we again looked at a carcass we were working and discussed the matter in detail, what shots to take and where to put the bullet.

Who here shoots neck shots ? Tell me about neck shots.

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@T @tripodmvr

You mostly have an in and out on monos. There is some bloodshot meat that could be on both sides, but the very snotty blood is not normally present and it washes off reasonably well. I have seen similar bloodshot meat as the carcass in the pictures. This was due to shooting with a mono 175 old Barnes X in my 7x64. The bullet was poorly stabilized and seems to have hit the kudu cow length wise.

@T @tripodmvr

Lead kills both ways. The hunted and the hunter.

@A @againstthegrains

To me that looks like the animal ran a lot before it passed out from blood loss. The running pulls blood into the damaged connective tissue.

There are 2 different processes that involve meat damage:

1) Damage to the tissue immediately around the path of the bullet hole characterized by dark red meat a few cm around the bullet hole. This is made worse the faster the bullet is traveling due to shock. This is worse with lead bullets that fragment and the lead particles spread through the muscle tissue. This also is bad when you strike bone, and the bone fragments have the same effect as lead fragments. The cause of the colour change is fragmentation of capillary network of the surrounding tissue, causing a blood infiltrate. Since the capillaries in the tissue are small, the extent of the blood flow is limited. Less pronounced with mono's unless you hit bone.

2) Tissue infiltrate, which is what I see in the picture, where the animal is bleeding from engine room damage (hint: major vessels) and there is a path open between the source of the blood and the network of connective tissue that is found in the facia between the muscle layers. As the animal runs away, the movement between the layers pulls the blood in, and is a b1tch to get rid of. When you cut through, the meat (muscle) is clean and free of the above (point 1). Can happen with both monos and cup and core and severity is associated with the time the animal takes to die and the amount the animal moves after being shot.

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No ! - this is a lot of jello, spread far between muscles.

The red jello is clotted blood, mixed in with the spongy connective tissue. The blood spreads when it is in liquid form, and the animal is alive. By the time it is dead and you cut it up, it has clotted.

Maybe you should shoot the animals with a heparin injection, so that the blood will wash out easily ;D

@T @treeman OP

Shot more Impala yesterday, same thing. I was able to study the carcass more carefully and I really feel that the bullet is coming apart just before exiting.
I will now load up a harder bullet and test it.

[deleted]

Question: did the bullets hit bone, or not?

If so, on which side/s did it occur?

@J @janfred

Well. Mine hit the scapula at entry and rib on exit.

I did not have a lot of bloodshot meat, but blood collected between the outer layer of meat and the rib layer of meat. To remove the blood, I had to cut the outer layer off. Now, what would have been a good rib turned into goulash.

From the amount of work required, head or neck shots on impala will be my future.

Entry in blue, blood jelly under green.
[attach id=835]IMG_20240827_123022.jpg[/attach]

Exit in blue, blood jelly under green
[attach id=837]IMG_20240827_123153.jpg[/attach]

@T @tripodmvr

A longstanding statement about the 270 was that a shot on the shoulder gave bloodshot meat from nose to tail.

@T @treeman OP

A longstanding statement about the 270 was that a shot on the shoulder gave bloodshot meat from nose to tail.

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Seems the 7mm 08 is about the same

@A @againstthegrains

270 got that reputation because it was faster than 30 cal. Its not about the caliber or chambering, but the speed the bullet is going when it hits the animal.

@T @treeman OP

So where is the cut off speed for hyper meat damage ?

I have a feeling that one will find that reduction of meat damage will be directly proportional to speed of kill. No bang flop DRT without that hydrostatic wave happening. (obviously excluding CNS hits)

@J @janfred

I shot my impala with a .308 180gr bullet doing around 2000fps on impact. Yet stil had a lot of blood between the meat layers. Actual blood-shot meat was quite small areas around the entry and exit, but the blood jelly area was huge. Most of that meat went for goulash and trimmings.

My biggest reason to use 180gr bullets is the low impact velocity to reduce meat loss. Doesn't help if blood goes between the layers.

@T @treeman OP

I shot my impala with a .308 180gr bullet doing around 2000fps on impact. Yet stil had a lot of blood between the meat layers. Actual blood-shot meat was quite small areas around the entry and exit, but the blood jelly area was huge. Most of that meat went for goulash and trimmings.

My biggest reason to use 180gr bullets is the low impact velocity to reduce meat loss. Doesn't help if blood goes between the layers.

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Bullet make and type?

@J @janfred

Norma Oryx 180gr at a MV of 2520. Bonded bullet.

@T @treeman OP

Norma Oryx 180gr at a MV of 2520. Bonded bullet.

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Well ! There goes the better bullet theory, your meat damage was no less than Cody meat damage - cheap cup and core versus bonded premium.

So whats with all the meat damage?

@N @newton

Is anyone doing an immediate cutting of the throat to allow bleed out ?

At the "other-place" TStone has a very good thread showing bullet performance

Perhaps a big heavy bullet with enough velocity for a .. pass through
Big entry wound - in the correct place - big exit wound - just like a big rod straight through -the vitals

@M @mohamed

Is anyone doing an immediate cutting of the throat to allow bleed out ?

At the "other-place" TStone has a very good thread showing bullet performance

Perhaps a big heavy bullet with enough velocity for a .. pass through
Big entry wound - in the correct place - big exit wound - just like a big rod straight through -the vitals

Yes, we cut the throat and let it bleed out after shooting.

@T @treeman OP

At the "other-place" TStone has a very good thread showing bullet performance
Perhaps a big heavy bullet with enough velocity for a .. pass through
Big entry wound - in the correct place - big exit wound - just like a big rod straight through -the vitals

***************************
a rod pushed through a animal causes a slow death compared to a lightning bolt through same animal same shot, much slower.

@N @newton

At the "other-place" TStone has a very good thread showing bullet performance
Perhaps a big heavy bullet with enough velocity for a .. pass through
Big entry wound - in the correct place - big exit wound - just like a big rod straight through -the vitals

***************************
a rod pushed through a animal causes a slow death compared to a lightning bolt through same animal same shot, much slower.

A big rod at 2,500fps

@T @treeman OP

a rod pushed through a animal causes a slow death compared to a lightning bolt through same animal same shot, much slower.

A big rod at 2,500fps

Then at twice the speed of sound + some, you back where you were, high velocity bullet.

@T @treeman OP

Pappabeer is 'n dokter.

https://www.jaracal.com/viewtopic.php?t=22954

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But yesterday we shot a kudu at 2900 fps using a 130 gr cup and core bullet. First shot was 200 + m second about 60 m, meat damage nothing like the 7mm 08 on impala. I am beginning to believe the size of the animal has a lot to do with it all.

@T @treeman OP

Now look at this 130 gr .270 cup and core mentioned above bullet at 3000 fps
I am really believing type and size of animal is a great determining factor in meat damage.
20240901_091950 by David Frank Allen, on Flickr

@T @treeman OP

Sorry "mentioned above post failed - heres the bullet.
20240831_224700 by David Frank Allen, on Flickr

@J @jamesnotbond

Hello Tree
Do you have a picture of one of the damage causing bullets from Cody's rifle. (recovered bullet that is)

@N @newton

Then at twice the speed of sound + some, you back where you were, high velocity bullet.

Heavy slow large calibre bullet big wound channel
BUT
Bad trajectory - especially for long range - the new hunting fad ( why you need high velocity )
Unless you shooting at close range - then too much velocity becomes a problem

Catch 22
Perhaps one should be shooting a .338 with a hybrid mono-metal ( SBC ) ????
.338 Win Mag quite popular and NOT a "sniper round" .338 Lapua

Anyone got one and tested using SBC ?
or
Perhaps one of these .. ?

358 Winchester

Why one can never have too many rifles - and calibres

@N @newton

I love Barnes bullets 7mm-08 Deer Slayer Hopeful Ballistics

Forgive me for titling your mysterious YouTube link - a pet hate of mine
Treeman has one of those .. a 7mm-08
Does HE use these bullets ?
Perhaps we could get a - from the field report ?

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