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I just received my induction annealer, and its Friday - the first should assure that not much else gets done with the other.
Gonna anneal everything I guess :o :o :o ;D
Anybody else use one ?
Cool annealing machine 8)
And I'm seeing the lines
Of your will and your wish list:
Les Savy Fav
Always the correct done thing to supply attribution - especially when you are an .. un-dead ghoul ;D
What is easy to determine is if what you do improves the outcome for you.
An example of where practical experience counts. No amount of video watching or web trawling tells you whether you will actually be able to do it successfully. Frugal old timers who annealed the mouths of cases submerged in a basin of water with a torch to reduce splitting didn't have instruments but the ones who learned how to do it had cases that lasted longer. I learned from one of those and when I tested what he taught me with tempilaq it appeared to be near spot on.
I guess the point is .. how do you know that what you are doing is scientifically measurable / provable ?
It's not easy to get scientific results from hobby equipment, which is what we all work with in the reloading arena.
What is easy to determine is if what you do improves the outcome for you.
The two reasons for case neck annealing are to avoid case neck cracking and improve neck tension consistency.
The fact that many people using many different methods report improved outcome, indicates to me that there is not just one right way to do it.
An old "How-To" video from a couple of years ago which I posted somewhere some time ago
Explains everything really well - even mentions running an annealing service
Which I now understand a lot better
W-20 handheld hardness tester .. as shown ( and tested ) in the video
The technical detail from AMP
Latest Research from AMP Annealing
I do not see any similar documentation at the "QuickAnneal" website ?
Run the tests including an ir calibrated handheld temperature gauge ( gun ) - save the images
and
You are all set to be able to ... demonstrably differentiate YOUR product from all the others
and
Put every question about annealing - to bed !
Now THIS I like
Four pages of rhetoric interrupted by meaningless plagarism of outdated web "research"..... Ugh.
Grab yourselves a Flir handheld IR calibrated & certified temp gauge and a calibrated & certified W-20 handheld hardness tester.
Take 5600 pieces of 1F Lapua & Alpha brass you used at national level competitions, and measure them compared to the reference virgins you set aside from each lot. Anneal a few samples, match hardness, concentricity, neck thickness & bullet-neck interference fit(what the kids call "neck tension"), then go shoot a batch.You can anneal with whatever you like, flame, AMP, QA. Or.... use a $130 110V annealer with a $17 timer switch off Amazon mounted in a base stand on your work bench, and measure your own shit.
From here
Quick Anneal any users out there with reviews?
Americans are a lot more blunt -and - rude than us ... :)
There really aren't any mysteries regarding the annealing of brass alloys. The metallurgists who formulate the alloys used by manufacturers know exactly what heat treatment regimes are required for their desired outcomes and they are conducted multiple times during the drawing out process alone.
How do these companies actually test and quality control their processes - and final product ?
Seeing as this is - "not a mystery" ?
Perhaps you could - explain ?
For the handloader
I have linked above a a proper scientific study done to determine the correct temperature
To discover the different "hardness" of the brass .. ( Brinell )
So much scientific literature ( I wonder how many people actually read it )
How to Test the Hardness of Brass
ANNEALING UNDER THE MICROSCOPE
Case Neck Tension - A Stress Analysis
To discover the repeatability and differences in neck tension
May I suggest the use of an AMP Press ( see below )
Perhaps next on Treeman's list of reloading equipment ? ( Now that he has a - BOSS - annealer )
I see that this annealing process is a big thing on You Tube - many opinions and variations of opinions.
There really aren't any mysteries regarding the annealing of brass alloys. The metallurgists who formulate the alloys used by manufacturers know exactly what heat treatment regimes are required for their desired outcomes and they are conducted multiple times during the drawing out process alone. A fair bit of the annealing related material on yoochoob and elsewhere on the internet is belief based bullshit peddled by people who don't know what they are talking about.
There must be a good reason why companies use electric annealing? Most probably because it is faster and more accurate?
[member=2]Treeman[/member]: how do the final results (accuracy) differ from other types of annealing results?
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I see that this annealing process is a big thing on You Tube - many opinions and variations of opinions.
There must be a good reason why companies use electric annealing? Most probably because it is faster and more accurate?
[member=2]Treeman[/member]: how do the final results (accuracy) differ from other types of annealing results?
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I have not been to the range yet, and the shot - annealed brass I have has not yet been reloaded.
I have little enough doubt though, after a day or two of testing scrap bucket brass and learning things, I annealed everything I have to best setting I came too on scraps. You can easily see whats happening and the process is so clear that you ALMOST do not have to test.
Its just so visible and repeated - clockwork stuff.
There must be a good reason why companies use electric annealing? Most probably because it is faster and more accurate?
[member=2]Treeman[/member]: how do the final results (accuracy) differ from other types of annealing results?
Mate of mine has an induction annealer and like treeman he's done every other possible rendition of the process and swears by it. Makes sense as the whole process can be made subject to digital control of every aspect. I've no idea how much better it is vs automated mechanical control of a gas flame but the results look absolutely consistent per batch of brass for whatever that's worth.
Saying that applying heat to partially reduce the hardness and increase ductility is not annealing is just not accurate. Just because users do not do a full anneal does not mean they are not annealing the case neck.
If there is a reduction in hardness and increase in ductility, some measure of annealing did take place. Just so happens that the brass is also relieved of some stress at the same time.
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I like this!
I have been doing some form of annealing since pre 2005 I would guess, I can say with certainty that what ever it is we do makes cases last longer, a lot longer.
It took a long time however to get it accurate over a batch of say 100 cases and then the next batch.
The gas flame on hand held type torch's just can not be kept specific enough from a new canister to a used - replace ready canister. I went over to 20 kg bottles to circumnavigate this issue.
I have done lead, gas torch, canister, gas bottle, wide flame, pin point flame, cases with water in bottom cm of case, I have burnt fingers and used templaque, wet wool tied around case and drills, rotating baking tins and spit braai adaptions.
This induction annealer hurt to pay for, but FFS mate it works like properly. It is amazing to see within a batch just how appearances of anneal on same, same, everything cases can differ. Some cases look overdone when happening and some look not hot enough, some have a beautiful annealing line and some not. If I were doing some cases by flame I would have done them again longer to get same by eye look and then they would not be same level of anneal and shoot otherwise.
The machine works proper mate.
Saying that applying heat to partially reduce the hardness and increase ductility is not annealing is just not accurate. Just because users do not do a full anneal does not mean they are not annealing the case neck.
If there is a reduction in hardness and increase in ductility, some measure of annealing did take place. Just so happens that the brass is also relieved of some stress at the same time.
I agree that you don't have to do things to learn, but you must do things to become proficient, and just reading about it and understanding the logic is not getting any result.
When you look at annealing the first time, you will look at it from a technical perspective and try do it right technically. For example, you may buy yourself some tempilaq to try get the temperature right. That is useful for learning, it's impractical thereafter. Annealing in a lead bath makes perfect sense. It's also not practical.
It's not necessary to get technical. Good results with annealing can be had quite simply.
For annealing case necks, the first time, simply use a gas flame in a darkened room, and when the entire neck is just a dull red, it's enough heat. After that, you can repeat the exercise in daylight, because you know what to look for.
The advantage of a machine is just that the amount of heat is mechanically controlled.
Truth is, I have no idea what my annealing temperature or resulting neck tension is. I do know I have no cracked necks, and the ammo produced shoots as well as I need it to.
What cartridge reloaders call annealing of brass is not in fact annealing in a metallurgical sense, it is stress relieving. Annealing is a very specific process, and it's not possible to anneal any metal in a few seconds, even though you can melt it in that time.
I guess the point is .. how do you know that what you are doing is scientifically measurable / provable ?
How do you know the correct temperature to use ? ( without some form of measuring and testing )
What is your test procedure / protocol ?
How do you test your method and your equipment ( induction vs gas / heat ) to show which method produces the "best" results ?
What constitutes "best result" ?
Someone has done it all for you..
Major findings include:
– An earlier finding that brass cases may become susceptible to neck cracking by SCC after a single cycle of loading and firing is reinforced.
– Annealing at temperatures from 350°- 450°C (roughly 650°- 850°F) for five seconds results in a perceptible reduction in cracking potential, but a substantial risk remains.
– Annealing at temperatures of 500°C (932°C) or higher results in instances of cracking dropping to zero.
– Annealing temperatures up to 550°C produce no microstructural changes in the brass material that can be resolved by optical techniques.
– Given the above, it follows that a shooter who regularly neck anneals cases in the range of 500°-550°C for five seconds can expect complete mitigation of cracking without affecting the fine-grained factory microstructure of the brass.
– Annealing temperatures of 600°C and greater begin to produce substantial metallurgical changes in the material, simultaneously resulting in reduced hardness, increased recrystallization, and grain growth of the material.
The full test and method ..Annealing Temperatures For Reloading Brass Cartridge Cases
How one would arrive at these results just by personal experience - without the necessary education / training / experience and equipment is moot
One does not have to have done everything oneself in order to learn from what others ( with far better education / training / experience / exposure ) have already done !
Trying to do everything oneself without using the knowledge that already exists is an exercise in futility
It may all not work at all ?
For a very little money and effort it is worth the effort
Any amount of heat results in stress relief in brass, the process just takes longer if the heat is low. Which is why a candle flame also works.
The lead bath may be cheap if you already have everything on hand. If not, you are well on your way to the cost of a gas annealer to get set up.
But the effort. Time consuming. A lot of work. Do yourself a favor, and try it.
It's taken me a lot of years to overcome my tendency to bloody single-mindedness and finally realize and understand that a pigs ear makes not a silk purse.
It may all not work at all ?
For a very little money and effort it is worth a try
IF it helps in the number of reloads one can get out of a case then it is already worth it
IF it helps with consistent neck tension then that is a bonus ...
:)
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To put it simply, it does not work ! It can be made to work, it can be made to look like it works, it can actually even be made to work.
So lets run a few things.
Not many people have correct equipment to heat lead to annealing temperatures.
Few folk even have the ability to measure the temperatures of molten lead.
Lead at annealing temperatures becomes a hazard in real terms. Lead fumes at above 480 cel abouts - lead fumes are a real problem. Not many people have the set up to deal with lead fumes - no, a fan outdoors is not the answer.
The process of dipping a shell in lead till it feels about hot enough is just absolutely a fkn joke when linked to the words precise - repeatable, controlled and understood.
By now you realising that the cost of heating this lead is not going to be negligible, and that the time spent waiting for it to reach temperature could have been better used raising the kids (bit brain damaged by dads lead, but still need raising)
Then, once you have somehow set it all up so that you have lead at correct temperature and having realized that you have spent thousands of rands on exstractres, melting pots, safety equipments and testing results equipment - you now have to prove you were right for a quick video to satisfy ego and then scrapping whole project for obvious reasons.
So eventually you start dipping the cases. Anyone mention that regardless of what you try the lead sticks to one case in 4-5, every time. Some get a thick layer, some get just a blob here and there. Some cases have lead that just rubs off and other cases have lead stuck that needs mechanical removal.
No - lead dipping does not work.
So that's why I after years of trying many ways, some which work better than others , decided to take the plunge. I now flip a switch, dial in a number and drop out case after case of exact results.
This is why I asked about your firearm knowledge and more so experience, as knowledgeable as you appear, it is often, from some posts apparent that you have read it but not done it.
Each to his own. If you want to work with a pool of molten lead, you can.
Everything is precise and controlled, till it isn't .
It may all not work at all ?
For a very little money and effort it is worth a try
IF it helps in the number of reloads one can get out of a case then it is already worth it
IF it helps with consistent neck tension then that is a bonus ...
:)
For Twenty thousand bucks I will rather try the hot lead process ( just as quick and repeatable once set up )
Stress relief in brass is proportional to temperature.
There is not enough heat in molten lead, when performed under garage conditions, to do a proper job, and more importantly, the ability to control the heat to give consistent results between batches. Just because the brass changes color due to heat, it doesn't automatically mean it's stress relieved to any particular degree.
Unless you're just annealing to purely stress relieve, not consistent neck tension for precision, in which case a candle will work too.
Did you read the article listed ?
The person is using a temperature controlled lead melting pot
The Copper Development Association states the full annealing temperature range for 70/30 Cartridge Brass is (450-680˚C).
Fast and precisely repeatable.
Here is a very good scientific explanation
Stress Relief Annealing cartridge brass
Molten lead of course can be any temperature up to 1749˚C at which point it starts to boil…which is way past even full annealing temperature for 70/30 Cartridge Brass so unless you have a precisely temperature controlled lead bath it is a bit hit and miss anyway.
"If it's going to be a service, then the electric machine is the way to go"
A very expensive one - and apparently according to comment here perhaps not a very lucrative one ?
I sometimes wonder about you, list your weapons here please, be interesting to see the weapons behind the knowlige.
Some people say you cannot write about the WWII on the Eastern front if you are not fluent in German and Russian.
Some people say you cannot write about ( or have ideas about ) firearms unless you have a whole armoury and reload for every cartridge .. and are also a World class champion shotist !
I have owned.. ( one or two licenced by my late father )
A Browning .380 ACP
A Ruger 45 long colt
A S&W 357 magnum
A Ruger Mini 14 in .223
A Sako in .222
A .410 DB shotgun
A DB 12 Ga shotgun
An R1 in .308 which I had for a year c/o - Oom Piet Botha
As well as an LMG when I was on the border in the Caprivi
When I returned to civilisation I sold all my firearms
I now have a 30-06 and a 300WM paid for and just waiting on paperwork
I have been around firearms and firearm owners and shooters for quite a long time
I reloaded for most of the firearms I owned - starting in 1976 when I was still at school
I have had and sold THREE sets of reloading gear at different times.
I have also shot with a number of other weapons owned by friends and at the range
Do I consider myself an "expert" ..not at all
I am however quite happy to make use of the knowledge of others far more knowledgeable and experienced than myself.
IF we were all "experts" then there would be no need for books or any other method of acquiring knowledge outside of personal experience !
For Twenty thousand bucks I will rather try the hot lead process ( just as quick and repeatable once set up )
Stress relief in brass is proportional to temperature.
There is not enough heat in molten lead, when performed under garage conditions, to do a proper job, and more importantly, the ability to control the heat to give consistent results between batches. Just because the brass changes color due to heat, it doesn't automatically mean it's stress relieved to any particular degree.
Unless you're just annealing to purely stress relieve, not consistent neck tension for precision, in which case a candle will work too.
A gas annealer is a far more sensible choice to start with.
If it's going to be a service, then the electric machine is the way to go. Fast and precisely repeatable.
Treeman, could you offer a precision package where you resize primer pockets, make flash holes uniform, clean and tumble and trim neck length?
This would be a nice service at a gun store or reloading place.
Too manually tedious - Too much time and labour involved
Most serious reloaders can do this themselves - inexpensively
How many gun-shops have you been to - and looked at their reloading section ?
Tell me about one where you can actually see ALL of the reloading equipment in actual working action - with detailed explanation of what all the parts are and what they do
I am convinced that a careful - serious - knowledgeable reloader using basic equipment can produce competition ammo.
Where the very expensive equipment comes into play is TIME-SAVING
When you are shooting / reloading thousands of rounds you need every labour and time-saving device you can buy !
Forget about all the extra super-duper microscopic accuracy gizmos- how much more accuracy does R50,000.00 buy you ?
BMW .. FORGET it - "THIS" .. is "ROLLS-ROYCE" territory
Good luck if you want to spend R350,000.00 on reloading gear !!!!!!!!!!
PS ;
I know people who have set-ups like this
I just received my induction annealer, and its Friday - the first should assure that not much else gets done with the other.
Gonna anneal everything I guess :o :o :o ;DAnybody else use one ?
Wwwell
Would help if we knew which annealer it was / is ..
I immediately jumped to the conclusion that it was AMP ( Annealing made perfect )
I then looked at Treeman's video and noticed the brand name .. "QUICK ANNEAL"
Based off of plans that were freely provided on an Internet site and discussed at - Gunsite
For Twenty thousand bucks I will rather try the hot lead process ( just as quick and repeatable once set up )
The process explained:
Ok, my process isn't high tech or anything.
I bought a cheap lead melting pot, and melted in a few big fishing sinkers from Walmart.
This is not very pure lead, so contaminants form at the top during use. I skim this out with an old screwdriver.With pot temperature adjustment, I use an old Omega thermocouple/indicator inserted in the lead, and have verified it's readings with a handheld laser thermometer(borrowed from work). I set temp at 675deg highest, which can drop as low as 600deg depending on the rate I'm dipping cases. With each dip some heat sinks away to the case, and the cheap built-in controller raises temp to compensate -with a bit of overshoot.
So my window is ~600 to 675deg.
This recrystallizes(stress relieves) the case both from the inside and outside, without risking annealing.Before lead dipping I pour Mobil1 oil in a plastic ammo box and insert my cases mouth down into it. Then I stand the cases up on a nail board with paper towels to further drain. Nice thin layer.
I've tried many oils/coatings and Mobil1 is the only coating I know of that can withstand these temps long enough, and not seperate from the cases during dipping. Amsoil synthetic might work, I don't know. Don't even try the other synthetics available, they'll just burn off with a flame, and you'll pull an elephant foot out permanently affixed to your case.
Even Mobil1 eventually burns. But it takes a couple minutes, and is not an issue provided you keep the amount low(hence, thin layer).To dip, I just pick up a case with a leather glove and very slowly lower into the lead(maybe 1/8" per sec), and once reaching my desired point, I raise the case back out at the same rate. Very slowly. The oil forms a ring that flows up the case away from the surface of the lead pool. This leaves just enough of something(surface oxidation?)on the brass to keep lead from soldering to it. The case feels dry afterwards, -where it contacted lead. But if you go too fast with inserting or removing, this coating fails to form and lead sticks.
For new 6.5WSSM brass I needed to form new body taper & shoulder angles on, I timed 45sec total dip for stress relieving to center of the case bodies. Slowly In/slowly out in 45sec. My wife helped me measure caseheads while doing so, and we get less than 200deg. Brass is unaffected below 450deg, so I'm confident in the control offered by lead dipping(over any other method). You could not easily go so far down a short case with a torch, without ruining it.
For simple neck/shoulder with normal thickness brass, you could probably hold the caseheads with your bare hand.
Completed dipping, I drop the cases in a pan of Citrisolv, or whatever degreasing agent provided for me in the kitchen. Then I tumble. The brass darkens only slightly where stress relieved. Less than factory discoloration.People rule out lead dipping due to risks with fumes and the evil energy in that pot. They rationalize that torching is easier –therefore better? Why is easier always better??
Annealing begins ~900+degs. How do you know a torch has produced the correct temperature all the way through the brass, and not 1000deg on the outside and 200deg inside?Anyway,,
I dip outside with a box fan behind the pot, pointed down wind. Lock away any cats or dogs beforehand, and just be careful not to dump the lead or drop anything into it. Pretty much the same precautions needed with a torch.
Overall, it's less painful than turning, and about the same pain as bumping.
I only stress relieve when needed. I know when I reach this point because I comparative measure & watch neck tension, and when bumps fail to consistently hold, it's time. With the minimum sizing I do, I can easily go 10 reloads before re-dipping. With the 6.5WSSM batch referenced I am just at this point(26 reloads).That's it!
And with this you could apparently walk among Supermen..
The process - with images
I doubt you would be able to do it all and charge a value for person doing it thats related to my/our kind of expected income. The cost of all taken into account would exceed the value of the brass, unless its the R150 a case type of brass. If it is, you will find the owner is the kind of guy that does it all himself - by desire to do so.
I have a sneaky suspicion that the proportion of 150 buck a case shooters who would pay for a service like that is higher than for the general dolled up AR/AK kind of punter.
Treeman, could you offer a precision package where you resize primer pockets, make flash holes uniform, clean and tumble and trim neck length?
This would be a nice service at a gun store or reloading place.
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I doubt you would be able to do it all and charge a value for person doing it thats related to my/our kind of expected income. The cost of all taken into account would exceed the value of the brass, unless its the R150 a case type of brass. If it is, you will find the owner is the kind of guy that does it all himself - by desire to do so.
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