Today I am feeling smug

Each to his own. If you want to work with a pool of molten lead, you can.

Everything is precise and controlled, till it isn't .

Each to his own. If you want to work with a pool of molten lead, you can.

Everything is precise and controlled, till it isn't .

It may all not work at all ?
For a very little money and effort it is worth a try

IF it helps in the number of reloads one can get out of a case then it is already worth it
IF it helps with consistent neck tension then that is a bonus ...
:)

It may all not work at all ?
For a very little money and effort it is worth a try
IF it helps in the number of reloads one can get out of a case then it is already worth it
IF it helps with consistent neck tension then that is a bonus ...
:)

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To put it simply, it does not work ! It can be made to work, it can be made to look like it works, it can actually even be made to work.
So lets run a few things.
Not many people have correct equipment to heat lead to annealing temperatures.
Few folk even have the ability to measure the temperatures of molten lead.
Lead at annealing temperatures becomes a hazard in real terms. Lead fumes at above 480 cel abouts - lead fumes are a real problem. Not many people have the set up to deal with lead fumes - no, a fan outdoors is not the answer.
The process of dipping a shell in lead till it feels about hot enough is just absolutely a fkn joke when linked to the words precise - repeatable, controlled and understood.
By now you realising that the cost of heating this lead is not going to be negligible, and that the time spent waiting for it to reach temperature could have been better used raising the kids (bit brain damaged by dads lead, but still need raising)
Then, once you have somehow set it all up so that you have lead at correct temperature and having realized that you have spent thousands of rands on exstractres, melting pots, safety equipments and testing results equipment - you now have to prove you were right for a quick video to satisfy ego and then scrapping whole project for obvious reasons.

So eventually you start dipping the cases. Anyone mention that regardless of what you try the lead sticks to one case in 4-5, every time. Some get a thick layer, some get just a blob here and there. Some cases have lead that just rubs off and other cases have lead stuck that needs mechanical removal.

No - lead dipping does not work.

So that's why I after years of trying many ways, some which work better than others , decided to take the plunge. I now flip a switch, dial in a number and drop out case after case of exact results.

This is why I asked about your firearm knowledge and more so experience, as knowledgeable as you appear, it is often, from some posts apparent that you have read it but not done it.

It may all not work at all ?
For a very little money and effort it is worth the effort

Any amount of heat results in stress relief in brass, the process just takes longer if the heat is low. Which is why a candle flame also works.

The lead bath may be cheap if you already have everything on hand. If not, you are well on your way to the cost of a gas annealer to get set up.

But the effort. Time consuming. A lot of work. Do yourself a favor, and try it.

It's taken me a lot of years to overcome my tendency to bloody single-mindedness and finally realize and understand that a pigs ear makes not a silk purse.

I guess the point is .. how do you know that what you are doing is scientifically measurable / provable ?
How do you know the correct temperature to use ? ( without some form of measuring and testing )
What is your test procedure / protocol ?
How do you test your method and your equipment ( induction vs gas / heat ) to show which method produces the "best" results ?
What constitutes "best result" ?

Someone has done it all for you..

Major findings include:

– An earlier finding that brass cases may become susceptible to neck cracking by SCC after a single cycle of loading and firing is reinforced.

– Annealing at temperatures from 350°- 450°C (roughly 650°- 850°F) for five seconds results in a perceptible reduction in cracking potential, but a substantial risk remains.

– Annealing at temperatures of 500°C (932°C) or higher results in instances of cracking dropping to zero.

– Annealing temperatures up to 550°C produce no microstructural changes in the brass material that can be resolved by optical techniques.

– Given the above, it follows that a shooter who regularly neck anneals cases in the range of 500°-550°C for five seconds can expect complete mitigation of cracking without affecting the fine-grained factory microstructure of the brass.

– Annealing temperatures of 600°C and greater begin to produce substantial metallurgical changes in the material, simultaneously resulting in reduced hardness, increased recrystallization, and grain growth of the material.

The full test and method ..Annealing Temperatures For Reloading Brass Cartridge Cases

How one would arrive at these results just by personal experience - without the necessary education / training / experience and equipment is moot
One does not have to have done everything oneself in order to learn from what others ( with far better education / training / experience / exposure ) have already done !
Trying to do everything oneself without using the knowledge that already exists is an exercise in futility

I agree that you don't have to do things to learn, but you must do things to become proficient, and just reading about it and understanding the logic is not getting any result.

When you look at annealing the first time, you will look at it from a technical perspective and try do it right technically. For example, you may buy yourself some tempilaq to try get the temperature right. That is useful for learning, it's impractical thereafter. Annealing in a lead bath makes perfect sense. It's also not practical.

It's not necessary to get technical. Good results with annealing can be had quite simply.

For annealing case necks, the first time, simply use a gas flame in a darkened room, and when the entire neck is just a dull red, it's enough heat. After that, you can repeat the exercise in daylight, because you know what to look for.

The advantage of a machine is just that the amount of heat is mechanically controlled.

Truth is, I have no idea what my annealing temperature or resulting neck tension is. I do know I have no cracked necks, and the ammo produced shoots as well as I need it to.

What cartridge reloaders call annealing of brass is not in fact annealing in a metallurgical sense, it is stress relieving. Annealing is a very specific process, and it's not possible to anneal any metal in a few seconds, even though you can melt it in that time.

Saying that applying heat to partially reduce the hardness and increase ductility is not annealing is just not accurate. Just because users do not do a full anneal does not mean they are not annealing the case neck.

If there is a reduction in hardness and increase in ductility, some measure of annealing did take place. Just so happens that the brass is also relieved of some stress at the same time.

Saying that applying heat to partially reduce the hardness and increase ductility is not annealing is just not accurate. Just because users do not do a full anneal does not mean they are not annealing the case neck.

If there is a reduction in hardness and increase in ductility, some measure of annealing did take place. Just so happens that the brass is also relieved of some stress at the same time.

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I like this!

I have been doing some form of annealing since pre 2005 I would guess, I can say with certainty that what ever it is we do makes cases last longer, a lot longer.
It took a long time however to get it accurate over a batch of say 100 cases and then the next batch.
The gas flame on hand held type torch's just can not be kept specific enough from a new canister to a used - replace ready canister. I went over to 20 kg bottles to circumnavigate this issue.

I have done lead, gas torch, canister, gas bottle, wide flame, pin point flame, cases with water in bottom cm of case, I have burnt fingers and used templaque, wet wool tied around case and drills, rotating baking tins and spit braai adaptions.
This induction annealer hurt to pay for, but FFS mate it works like properly. It is amazing to see within a batch just how appearances of anneal on same, same, everything cases can differ. Some cases look overdone when happening and some look not hot enough, some have a beautiful annealing line and some not. If I were doing some cases by flame I would have done them again longer to get same by eye look and then they would not be same level of anneal and shoot otherwise.
The machine works proper mate.

Mate of mine has an induction annealer and like treeman he's done every other possible rendition of the process and swears by it. Makes sense as the whole process can be made subject to digital control of every aspect. I've no idea how much better it is vs automated mechanical control of a gas flame but the results look absolutely consistent per batch of brass for whatever that's worth.

There must be a good reason why companies use electric annealing? Most probably because it is faster and more accurate?

[member=2]Treeman[/member]: how do the final results (accuracy) differ from other types of annealing results?

There must be a good reason why companies use electric annealing? Most probably because it is faster and more accurate?

[member=2]Treeman[/member]: how do the final results (accuracy) differ from other types of annealing results?

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I have not been to the range yet, and the shot - annealed brass I have has not yet been reloaded.

I have little enough doubt though, after a day or two of testing scrap bucket brass and learning things, I annealed everything I have to best setting I came too on scraps. You can easily see whats happening and the process is so clear that you ALMOST do not have to test.
Its just so visible and repeated - clockwork stuff.

There must be a good reason why companies use electric annealing? Most probably because it is faster and more accurate?

[member=2]Treeman[/member]: how do the final results (accuracy) differ from other types of annealing results?

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I see that this annealing process is a big thing on You Tube - many opinions and variations of opinions.

I see that this annealing process is a big thing on You Tube - many opinions and variations of opinions.

There really aren't any mysteries regarding the annealing of brass alloys. The metallurgists who formulate the alloys used by manufacturers know exactly what heat treatment regimes are required for their desired outcomes and they are conducted multiple times during the drawing out process alone. A fair bit of the annealing related material on yoochoob and elsewhere on the internet is belief based bullshit peddled by people who don't know what they are talking about.

A fair bit of the annealing related material on yoochoob and elsewhere on the internet is belief based bullshit peddled by people who don't know what they are talking about.

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ooooh yeaaaaa ! lotsa wanna be the answer to it all vids out there.

There really aren't any mysteries regarding the annealing of brass alloys. The metallurgists who formulate the alloys used by manufacturers know exactly what heat treatment regimes are required for their desired outcomes and they are conducted multiple times during the drawing out process alone.

How do these companies actually test and quality control their processes - and final product ?
Seeing as this is - "not a mystery" ?
Perhaps you could - explain ?

For the handloader
I have linked above a a proper scientific study done to determine the correct temperature

To discover the different "hardness" of the brass .. ( Brinell )

So much scientific literature ( I wonder how many people actually read it )

About Cartridge Brass

How to Test the Hardness of Brass

ANNEALING UNDER THE MICROSCOPE

Case Neck Tension - A Stress Analysis

To discover the repeatability and differences in neck tension

May I suggest the use of an AMP Press ( see below )

AMP PRESS

Perhaps next on Treeman's list of reloading equipment ? ( Now that he has a - BOSS - annealer )

Now THIS I like

Four pages of rhetoric interrupted by meaningless plagarism of outdated web "research"..... Ugh.

Grab yourselves a Flir handheld IR calibrated & certified temp gauge and a calibrated & certified W-20 handheld hardness tester.

Take 5600 pieces of 1F Lapua & Alpha brass you used at national level competitions, and measure them compared to the reference virgins you set aside from each lot. Anneal a few samples, match hardness, concentricity, neck thickness & bullet-neck interference fit(what the kids call "neck tension"), then go shoot a batch.

You can anneal with whatever you like, flame, AMP, QA. Or.... use a $130 110V annealer with a $17 timer switch off Amazon mounted in a base stand on your work bench, and measure your own shit.

From here

Quick Anneal any users out there with reviews?

Americans are a lot more blunt -and - rude than us ... :)

An old "How-To" video from a couple of years ago which I posted somewhere some time ago

Explains everything really well - even mentions running an annealing service

Which I now understand a lot better

W-20 handheld hardness tester .. as shown ( and tested ) in the video

W-20 Webster Hardness Tester

The technical detail from AMP

Latest Research from AMP Annealing

I do not see any similar documentation at the "QuickAnneal" website ?

Run the tests including an ir calibrated handheld temperature gauge ( gun ) - save the images
and
You are all set to be able to ... demonstrably differentiate YOUR product from all the others
and
Put every question about annealing - to bed !

I guess the point is .. how do you know that what you are doing is scientifically measurable / provable ?

It's not easy to get scientific results from hobby equipment, which is what we all work with in the reloading arena.

What is easy to determine is if what you do improves the outcome for you.

The two reasons for case neck annealing are to avoid case neck cracking and improve neck tension consistency.

The fact that many people using many different methods report improved outcome, indicates to me that there is not just one right way to do it.

What is easy to determine is if what you do improves the outcome for you.

An example of where practical experience counts. No amount of video watching or web trawling tells you whether you will actually be able to do it successfully. Frugal old timers who annealed the mouths of cases submerged in a basin of water with a torch to reduce splitting didn't have instruments but the ones who learned how to do it had cases that lasted longer. I learned from one of those and when I tested what he taught me with tempilaq it appeared to be near spot on.

An example of where practical experience counts. No amount of video watching or web trawling tells you whether you will actually be able to do it successfully.

Of course not
It is however a - starting point

Cool annealing machine 8)

Cool annealing machine 8)

And I'm seeing the lines
Of your will and your wish list:

Les Savy Fav

Always the correct done thing to supply attribution - especially when you are an .. un-dead ghoul ;D